All right, you have figured out how to click on a url. Now I'll respond to another of your moronic responses. 1) Yes, cost can go up and they have the right to increase the rate and likewise you have the right to cancel. 2) This is a charge that you will find in most payment transactions. Have you ever bounced a check? 3) No response warranted. 4) Common verbiage, check any other TOS and you will find the same. If this is a problem for you then do not use the service. 5) Same as 3 6) Yes, that is it. If uncomfortable, again, do not use the service. 7) No, please read again. It says that if you "port" the number that Kall8 gave you within 12 months you will pay $50.00.
Ah, yes it is a popup. Here is the code from the web page. href="terms.html" target="new"><font size="1" face="Verdana">Terms and Conditions</font></a><font size="1" face="Verdana"> A note about target: Validation and target attribute The target attribute of the <a> element is deprecated, and will not validate against HTML 4.01 Strict and XHTML 1.0 Strict doctypes (or any future specification). That is not really a well formed <a> element but it's really a popup that doesn't function well. Here is a link if you really want to learn something. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/popup.php?ref Hey Hey, what are we doing here. This is the Luny bin and only rants and raves are allowed here. Hey moderator please correct this guy trying to be serious in the lunatic ranting and raving category.
Yes, costs do go up. Why not take the responsibility of informing your customers. Let me guess. Because no one else does. I've made credit card sales to people where their credit card was declined and I simply asked them for another card. It doesn't cost the merchant any money when a card declines so why should you charge them? Let me guess, because everyone else does. Oh, is Common verbiage the same thing as "because everyone else does". That's the same argument people were using why broadvoice's unlimited isn't really unlimited. Because all the other providers aren't really unlimited. Well, if people feel they want to do business with a company that can breach their contract and stay exempt from liability then that's ok. That's really taking responsibility and standing behind your product. And your reactions of "do not use the service" is so diplomatic but hey that's in there because "everybody else does" Oh, that's much different right? No, i'll just print up all new business cards, stationery, invoices, call all my customers, update all the websites in the remote chance you feel like being negligent or incompetent. Gee, you think that would cost less than $50 or might I be inclined to bring the number with me dah? Well, after looking closely at your TOS it seems you spell out very specifically what the customer has to do but you can do anything you want, you don't have to notify them of price increases and you are not responsible for anything including negligence, fraud or incompetence. They still have to pay. Looks like a broadvoice TOS agreement to me except Broadvoice's prices are much more reasonable.
RE: Re: What is this forum for? Rants and Raves is a fairly common expression, which is why it was chosen.
RE: Re: What is this forum for? I belong to a well known cellphone forum, and it has a Provider Rant forum (didn't even say Rave). Certain level of problems and complaints are allowed in the regular provider forums, but once it is "ranting", i.e., people getting too emotional, or using emotional style of writing, then it will only be allowed in the Rant forum. Now this forum is seen by many as very relaxed in "moderating", but still this is very accepted there to have a seperate one, so those non-stop whining posts will not block the arteries of the main forums. And the website owner can do whatever they want, as they own it. I can see that some threads did not belong to the regular forum here, when someone is trying to bicker with every other posters here, generating tons of posts, all about bickering this, arguing that, as if we all have to sift through all that posts. The text medium is never good to convey emotion, and this is the wrong medium to do that. This is how flame wars begin, and nothing has changed as long as text is the medium. you will be here bickering with everyone as long as they are not 100% totally agreeing with you here, and that is not progress. In order to have a useful and meaningful discussion panel, having seperate forums for diff. purposes is a must. Since most people are looking for technical answers, then there must be a seperate technical forum, and a forum purely for your emotional outburst. For example, one post had only one word "Good!" (not included the quoted words from another poster). This kind of post serves no purposes to anyone else except the two there, and yet it takes up "bandwidth". Please tell me this kind of post has to do with "legitimate complaint", apparantly someone is to bicker with everyone else instead.
RE: Re: What is this forum for? Hey loud, You posted on this forum 21 times since april, and 16 were in the "emotional" threads. Can you say hypocrate". Why don't you crybabies give up trying to discredit people that don't agree with you? I guess that's just the only kind of character you are going to find around here when ip addresses aren't displayed with the posts. Now GET OUT of our luny bin emotional moronic lunatic "rants and raves" forum. You have to post in the unemotional threads from now on if you know anything technical about voip.
GOOD (bandwidth hogging - 4 bytes - 32bits. Caution 1200bps modem users don't read this post. It hogs too much bandwidth.
You neglected to count start and stop bits, which inflates the required bandwidth by an additional 25%. Also, contrary to any accepted writing style guide, the parenthetical comment includes both a sentence fragment and two complete sentences. Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that there's no closing parenthesis. How can anybody take you seriously? I mean, really...
That's just the point scottr. This is the lunatic rants and rave forum. As the name suggests, you're not supposed to take anything seriously here...really. "TOS agreemements With A trick" www.800wearnotliable.com
Datarax, if you are going to change my signature line could please at least spell the changes correctly? "agreemements" is spelled "agreements" and "wear" in the context you used it should be spelled "we're". If you are not intelligent enough to spell, Google has a great add on that might help you. By the way, are you affiliated with www.datarax.com that is out of business? If so, did Broadvoice wipe you out with their $300.00 surcharge for business use? I think you have been asked before if you had a business but conveniently dodged the question.
You're entirely missing my point. Whatever valid arguments you may have are being buried by your pedantic and sometimes outright silly criticisms. The sheer volume is not helping, either. And then there's juvenile stuff like this... I repeat: how can anybody take you seriously?
Aw come on scottr. Lighten up. There are a lot of juviniles on this forum. Should datarax take his meds, should datarax be kicked off this forum. However, the tos agreements with a trick is just my own way of showing my contempt for unfair one sided tos agreements. TOS agreements are important, but only a few of us really focus on them. For instance, Voxilla has a provider comparison section of the site but they compare the marketing claims instead of the tos agreements. Since most of the members here feel deceptive marketing is acceptable, that renders the voxilla comparison useless since it only adresses the false claims of the providers. It's the TOS agreements where the real meat of the service resides. Very little attention is given to them. Since 6.9 cents a minute attacked me for not being able to read his I thought it would be a good opportunity to bring these one sided documents to the forefront. BV's TOS agreement has been scrutinized here also. So while you may so easily dismiss my posts as juvenile, they serve a real valid purpose in helping people make decisions about their service. In 800flex's case, I personally would not use a service where they reserve the right to be negligent, violate the terms of the contract and hold themselves blameless. It seems it's part of a growing unwillingness of people to take responsibilty for their actions. So, while I may use juvinile methods sometimes to make my point, remember who some of these members are.
At least you've finally admitted it. Look around, some folks may be trying to tell you that they don't really work. - Don
Thanks Don. I'll take that as a constructive criticism. See, that's works better than "should datarax take his meds" doesn't it? http://voxilla.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-5835.html But don't forget half the members tried to tell me that the billion minutes ad was not deceptive and 3/4 tried to tell me that web sites shouldn't pull deceptive ads so you will have to forgive me if I don't put the amount of weight to their statements that you would like me to.
If we take what you said about BroadVoice violating their own TOS as the truth, that means any service provider could violate their TOS. How can we evaluate the TOS when it may not be true? How can we evaluate any information about the service provider when what they represent on their website may not, in fact, be the the way it really is? The best we can do is take the information as published (or provided to us) and assume it is correct. This is what we do in the Comparison Module. It's not a perfect system, of course, but unless someone on the Voxilla staff gains psychic abilities in these areas, it's what we got to work with. If you'd like to make a suggestion about adding "TOS" information into the comparison module, fair enough. Please post it under the appropriate thread.
i have a sugestion phoneboy, "user ratings" comparison board, or maybe incorporated on that comparison board you already have. Along with a means of users rating the provider of course. (maybe like the model cnet uses) also instead of having this generelized board named "Provider Rants and Raves" for all the providers at once, witch will make it very difficult for a user to find accounts of real experiences for a particular provider that he is looking for, and the announsment on top of each providers forum be "post complaints on rants and faves", it should be "user revews" and it should take to a forum of revews for just that particular provider.
I don't recall posting that BV violated its TOS. My point is that they are not disclosing the basis for reclassifying a customer from residential to business. That should nullify any claim they have for unlimited in your comparison. Phoneboy, all providers with unlimited plans have to get rid of heavy users or go bankrupt. You know what's going on. It appears most providers are not having major problems because they are offering unlimted usa and canada plans. BV is offering unlimited world plans that have a higher cost basis. They have lowered the bar too low because they are not charging enough. Not charging enough is how they got so big. There is enough evidence there to strip them of the unlimited claim in your comparison. The sooner they stop this the sooner they can start building a respectable business again. When you guys let them do this it encourages them to continue.
Depends on the ratio of "heavy" users to non-heavy users the provider has. For the purposes of discussion, let's assume "heavy" means more than 5,000 minutes a month within the US, which is where Qwest and several other companies claim their "excessive usage" clauses kick in. And let's assume we're using an unlimited plan on Vonage, which is $25 a month. There's costs involved with providing that service that are relatively fixed: cost of DIDs, infrastructure (both VoIP and web), cost of customer service, and so on. Let's assume about $5 goes to pay that overhead. With the $20 you have left over, you could buy 5,000 minutes wholesale (in sufficient quantity) for $0.004 a minute. Let's use the 1,000,000 number that Vonage threw out for "number of customers." For the sake of argument, assume that all customers have the $25 plan. Let's also assume that a "normal, non-excessive" customer uses 1,000 minutes a month (on average). Furthermore, assume that 1% of the the customers are "excessive use" customers and use 10,000 minutes a month (on average). At $0.04 a minute, 1,000 minutes cost the carrier $4. Add $5 to cover the other expenses, and you have $9 a month. If the carrier is making $25 a month from the customer, that's $16 a month per customer for 990,000 customer, or over $1.5 million bucks total. For the 10,000 customers that use 10,000 minutes a month, that's $40 in minutes and another $5 to cover costs. That means at $25 a month from the customer the provider is having to eat $20 a month. $1,584,400 (the 99%) - $200,000 (the 1%) = $1,564,400, meaning despite the large users using "more than their share", the company still makes money. Of course if you change the numbers here--either number of users using more than their share or the costs--you will get different results. Calculations like this are built into the business model for any industry that provides "unlimited" access to the service.
Don't compare vonage's domestic $25 plan to BV's domestic and world plan. The numbers don't come close. You think it costs a provider $.004 to call Brazil? If world calls are the same as domestic, why doesn't voicepulse offer the world with its unlimted plan? You can't offer unlimited world calling for $25 per month without having to lower the bar very far and hurt people. And, BV encouraged people with high call volumes to use them as well as you did with the billion minutes ad. Now they are having to dump all the billion minute customers and saying it's not our fault?
