[BEG]

I have a DSL line that requires a phone line. Where I live it costs at least 5 cents a minute to call even just a few miles away so almost all my calls I consider long distance which we have shut off on the land line. I've used Dialpad but their sold and not offering the dpphone service any more. All I want is inexpensive reliable long distance. I don't care if I get caller ID or all the frills, (though forwarding messages to email or forwarding calls to other phones is very nice). Phonegnome seems to be able to do what I want and more but I'm not afraid to dive into the Sipura 3000 either after reading much discussions on it in this post. Anyway, I don't necessarily want to spend $100 and have them go out of business in a year, (like dialpad), and be stuck with a $100 piece of hardware I can't use. (Dialpads wasn't $100 but pretty close after setup fees, etc.) So, if Phonegnome goes defunct with the product work like a SIP3000?

We use about 475 min. a month via dialpad which would be every call except 800 calls and the very few local calls we make. With dialpad it works out to be around 2 to 3 cents per minute with the $12 unlimited plan. It seems most VOIP plans take the 800 calls and charge them to your minutes but the phonegnome/sipura doesn't?

Which VOIP do you reccomend just do get outgoing calls?

Do you have to dial a long distance number to enable phonegnome to go VOIP? Our local calls, outside of a very few numbers, are charged the 5 cent rate as mentioned.

I am sorry I am sure this sounds a little batty. I've been doing research on this stuff and the VOIP providers just drive me nuts. Most of their websites don't tell you what you get billed for or don't answer questions until you sign up, if then. A lot won't offer service in my area and they offer all these features that I don't need. Then you figure you've found one and then you find 100's of people that hate them or have had terrible luck. Plus, most review sites seem to be vendor/advertisment driven so you can't trust the reviews. Anyway, thanks for letting me vent and for the help.

[Jackson]

May be you want to mention where are you located and what are the destination you will be calling ?

[BEG]

Sorry,
I'm in Wisconsin. My in-laws live in Michigan and Ohio and her sister in Indiana so that's where we call most of the time.

[DracoFelis]

Originally Posted by BEG

Phonegnome seems to be able to do what I want and more but I'm not afraid to dive into the Sipura 3000 either after reading much discussions on it in this post. Anyway, I don't necessarily want to spend $100 and have them go out of business in a year, (like dialpad), and be stuck with a $100 piece of hardware I can't use. (Dialpads wasn't $100 but pretty close after setup fees, etc.) So, if Phonegnome goes defunct with the product work like a SIP3000?

Only if PhoneGnome releases a firmware conversion utility to convert a PhoneGnome into an SPA3000. So far, they have talked about that option, but I don't think they have released anything (or given any ETA on that option).

Originally Posted by BEG

We use about 475 min. a month via dialpad which would be every call except 800 calls and the very few local calls we make. With dialpad it works out to be around 2 to 3 cents per minute with the $12 unlimited plan.

With that few minutes, your best bet for an "outgoing plan" is something that charges by the minute INSTEAD OF charging you a monthly fee. Here are some options:

1) If you just want to use your telco/POTS line, consider a pre-paid calling card (and then setup the "speed dial" on your phone to call the calling card number). For example "OneSuite" will let you call USA48 locations for 2.9 cents per minute via their 800 number service (2.5 cents per minute, if you live in a city with a local access number for OneSuite). And you can use them with normal phones, and even setup their website to recognise your phone (so you don't constantly have to enter your PIN). If you are wondering, I use OneSuite as "backup" to my VoIP options (and for when I'm traveling). Here is a link to OneSuite, with a 30 minute signup bonus: https://www.onesuite.com/03AQ88110/suitetreat

2) If you want to go with a VoIP solution (PhoneGnome, SPA-3102, etc), there are a lot of providers that will sell you USA48 outbound minutes at 2 cents per minute, or less. For example, one of the providers I use for a "backup" (when my main "unlimited" plan is down for any reason) is Teliax ( http://www.teliax.com/?a=64253806 ). At 2 cents per minute, they are not the cheapest option out there, but their quality is good, and I really like the features of their web portal. NOTE: Teliax charges a monthly fee (and per minute use) for their inbound numbers. But as long as you don't get an (optional) inbound number from them, there is no monthly fee (and you are just charged for the minutes you call).

3) And for "real cheap" providers, there is always the old "standbys" (some of which I haven't personally used): http://www.voxee.com (1.1 cents per minute), http://www.gizmoproject.com (1 cent per minute, but minutes expire), and http://www.vbuzzer.com (1 cent per minute, but people report that they can't get it to work with PhoneGnome). And I'm sure that a lot of other options are out there, for anyone with an adapter that lets you easily add outbound providers.

Originally Posted by BEG

It seems most VOIP plans take the 800 calls and charge them to your minutes but the phonegnome/sipura doesn't?

With the PhoneGnome, 800 calls are sent out via your telco/POTS line. As such, they won't count against your VoIP minutes.

With a SPA3000 (and I think also the newer SPA-3102) you can manually setup the adapter to send 800/888/877/866 calls anywhere you want. Once this is done, whenever you dial a "toll free" number, it goes to the location of your choice (instead of using your default VoIP provider). For example, you could have your SPA-3000/3102 send toll free via your FXO (telco line), just like a PhoneGnome does. Or you could do as I have, and send "toll free" via the free "Free World Dialup" service. Etc.

So yes, with either a PhoneGnome or a SPA3000/3102, you can route "toll free" via a service that doesn't charge you to complete the call (even when you are making other calls via a service that charges for all outbound, including "toll free").

Originally Posted by BEG

Do you have to dial a long distance number to enable phonegnome to go VOIP? Our local calls, outside of a very few numbers, are charged the 5 cent rate as mentioned.

I could be wrong, but I think PhoneGnome sends all 7-digit calls out via the POTS line. If so, you would have to dial anything you want to be VoIP with 11-digits. It could still be an area "local to you", but you may have to dial 11-digits.

With an SPA3000/3102, you would set this up yourself, via how you did your "dial plan". As such, you could (if you wished), have the adapter accept 7 digit dialing, and auto-convert that into a 11-digit call to your VoIP company of choice (i.e. automatically/transparently pre-pend 1 and your default area code to the number you dialed on your phone).

Originally Posted by BEG

A lot won't offer service in my area and they offer all these features that I don't need.

Some VoIP providers will refuse to sign up new customers unless they can offer E911 to your area. But there are still a lot of providers that will sell your outbound service, even if/when they don't have an inbound number in your area.

Since you still have a POTS line, something like a PhoneGnome (or an SPA-3102, if you are "feeling brave" and are willing to do all the setup yourself) is a decent choice. Because you can then use your POTS line for incomming calls, and just use VoIP for cheap outgoing! As such, you really don't "need" a provider that has a number in your area (although a provider, such as Teliax, that allows you to set your outbound CallerID to your POTS number might be a plus).

Of course, as already mentioned, the easiest solution for your situation, is to just get a cheap pre-paid phone card (such as the OneSuite I mentioned), and then use that phone card from your home (i.e. dial the 800 number for the phone card on your POTS line). If you setup a speed dial with that phone card access number, this is really pretty painless in my experience (I took that approach for years, before doing VoIP)...

[BEG]

DracoFelis,

Thank you for replying. I read some of your stuff before and you really know your stuff.

I thought about a phone card but I have a three year old and 10 month old that I'd like them to be able to learn how to call gram and gramp or be somewhat standard to other phones.

The spa is appealing as I could say if you dial 911, 411 or 555-xxxx go to PSTN, any other seven digit number put a 1-777 in fron of it and go to VOIP and any 11 digit number just go to VOIP unless its a 800 (toll free) number then go to PSTN. The unappealing part isn't so much the learning how to do it is that I'd have to learn to do it several times as I forget things over time.

I like that the HG has some features like call waiting, three way (for my wife), and passing voicemal to email and forwarding already built into it. I can deal with dialing 11 digits for local charged distance calls I just don't want to buy a $100 box and have it be useless if they go defunct. Do you/anyone know if it is usefull if they do. Can you update the firmware, (like a pc), and maybe set it back to nothing and work with it then? Is it really just an SPA3000 with propriatary firmware? I guess that's the main thing with me probably just having it happen to me from dialpad.

I need a hub for both too don't I?

[yiannis]

Originally Posted by DracoFelis

I could be wrong, but I think PhoneGnome sends all 7-digit calls out via the POTS line. If so, you would have to dial anything you want to be VoIP with 11-digits. It could still be an area "local to you", but you may have to dial 11-digits.

At the PhoneGnome portal, there is an option where you can pick how to route 7 digit calls. You can either send them to the PSTN, or to your ITSP (VoIP provider).

For local calls, free to dial over the land line, there is a page at the same place, where you can define all the NPA NXX combinations which should be dialed through the PSTN. If you want a list of the the local NXXs in your area, send me a PM and I will get it for you.

Now to address your point of what are we going to do with a bunch of locked ATAs, if TelEvolution goes out of business. I had the same question before I invested in several of them. I spoke about it to David the CEO, and he sounded like a decent man over the phone. He went over the details of their financial backing and their commitment to this platform. Overall I got a good feeling about their operation.

Now if worst comes to worst, I believe there will be two options concerning our units. Either the back-end servers that run the PhoneGnomes will be sold to another provider, since this will be one of TelEvolution's main assets and our service will not be affected, or TelEvolution will go ahead and unlock our units for a fee. Note: The last two sentences are what I think will happen in this case, not something which was mentioned during my discussion with David.

Overall the PhoneGnome product is really coming along as the choice which will let you get into VoIP without the hassle. Definitely a strong contender in the Wife Acceptance Factor* arena.

* The word wife could be interpreted as significant other, older relatives, teenagers, or people in general you don't want to explain it's not a real phone line.

[zenman]

I, also, was inconvenienced by Dialpad's acquisition by Yahoo.

I researched many alternative (thank you Voxilla) and found Teliax www.teliax.com to be good alternative.

I have a SPA-2100 and also asterisk. teliax uses SIP which how all the ATA's you mentioned communicate with the VOIP servers.

I am using the pay as you go plan which is more per month $8.99 vs $7.50 for Dialpad,but you get more minutes. Per minute charge is about the same. Many providers offer a "pay as you go" plan which has a monthly fee of $8.99 plus mintues.

I am on the west coast so I didn't want to use any of the East Coast VOIP providers. I am thinking that I every little microsecond counts right. That is why I used Dialpad, and that is why Dialpad was purchased by Yahoo down Hwy 237.

Teliax servers are in Denver and Los Angeles.

Unlike Dialpad, I am getting through everytime. I am used to the one in ten times where the call can not be placed using DialPad. I was OK with that.

Maybe not applicable for you, but the Pay as you go with Teliax also included international, DialPad had to joing another plan.

I am still using my last remaining DialPad mintues before expiration, but I am enjoying Teliax's service in parallel and hoping it is going to last longer.

I was about to use the old Sam's Club calling card which gives the same per minute rate, but the international feature was nice.

BTW, I am still fuming from using Broadvoice on April of 2005. And the great debacle with Global Crossing. Dialpad was a great provider - RIP.

[BEG]

DracoFelis and zenman mentions teliax and I checked them out. They look pretty good and look like they support using your own hardware nicely. My only thought/question was whether you put money on their system, like a calling card, or they bill you after you use it like telcoms.

I downloaded the info on the SPA3000 and 3102 and it doesn't look that hard....!! I am assuming that they are identical but one newer. The 3000 mentioned 3-way calling and call forwarding, etc.

Yiannis - I'm glad PG gives you options for routing calls. It brings up another question though, as you mentioned servers and the portal. Does the PG have to go to a server to decide how to route calls? I'm not sure but I don't think the SPA's do that and I'm not sure the PG does it either? Just seems like if it does it would add an extra step in the process. Oh, but I bet the SPA has to do it too to see if it's going to talk to another box for free? If it comes to unlocking it is it really a SPA3000 underneath?

Also, how does TelEvolution make money? I suppose they could just be a hardware vendor like linksys but their support costs seem like it would be higher than other hardware vendors. Do they get kickbacks from VOIP guys?

Each time I say to myself it's a 3102 I go back to PG. I am happy though that it looks like either way Teliax looks good, (knock on wood), and I'm just down to which box. It's a lot better than wondering which of the 400+ us VOIP providors to choose from.

[BEG]

P.S. - Yup, Dialpad was pretty good. They had one billing glitch and a few glitches up front, (setup PPP when I shouldn't have), then the call that wouldn't go through every so often but really decent. I had the $11.99 plan no extra charges and knew what you we're being billed. Unique product too.

[DracoFelis]

Originally Posted by BEG

I downloaded the info on the SPA3000 and 3102 and it doesn't look that hard....!! I am assuming that they are identical but one newer. The 3000 mentioned 3-way calling and call forwarding, etc.

Not quite. The SPA-3102 is not only newer than the SPA3000 (I own an SPA-3000, btw), but it also appear to have a builtin router (whereas both the PhoneGnome and the SPA-3000 are VoIP adapters only, no router). You can think of an SPA-3102 as a combo of the features in the SPA-2100 and SPA-3000.

Originally Posted by BEG

Does the PG have to go to a server to decide how to route calls?

My guess would be that they do. Otherwise, how would they do the advanced routing options that the hardware can't handle directly? Of course, maybe someone at PG support will answer for sure.

Originally Posted by BEG

Just seems like if it does it would add an extra step in the process.

Even if they do add that extra step, it should go VERY FAST (under a second). So it shouldn't interfere with your phone experience much, if at all (unless their servers are down for some reason).

Originally Posted by BEG

Oh, but I bet the SPA has to do it too to see if it's going to talk to another box for free?

In most cases, yes. While some of us have setup true "peer to peer" calls, most of the time we go via a service. And even if you use a "free service" (Free World Dialup, SIP Broker, etc), you are still going to the extra step of checking with their proxy before completing the call. And as already mentioned, that step often goes very fast.

Originally Posted by BEG

If it comes to unlocking it is it really a SPA3000 underneath?

Supposedly, an SPA3000 and a PhoneGnome are the exact same hardware. However, they apparently have quite different firmwares in the two units, so they behave quite differently.

And so to convert one to the other, you would somehow have to get the unit to completely replace one firmware with the other (and the firmware flash options of the two units aren't designed to flash between the two firmware models).

Originally Posted by BEG

Also, how does TelEvolution make money? I suppose they could just be a hardware vendor like linksys but their support costs seem like it would be higher than other hardware vendors.

1) A PhoneGnome is more costly to buy than a SPA3000 (or even an SPA-3102). So they obviously make some money on the initial sales.

2) There are some extra (optional) services you can buy from PG, that have a fee associated with them. Such as their service to let you use your PG, when away from the house.

Originally Posted by BEG

Do they get kickbacks from VOIP guys?

It wouldn't surpise me if PG got some commisions from companies advertising on their web site.

Originally Posted by BEG

Each time I say to myself it's a 3102 I go back to PG.

FWIW: The PG looks good to me too.

There is some risk that PG will go down (and therefor you may be stuck with a "locked" adapter). But as long as you expect PG to be stable, it should be easier to do most things with a PG, then with an SPA3000/3102. The 3000/3102 will give you a LITTLE more power IF you know how to set it up. But the PG should be much easier to setup than the 3000/3102 (said by someone who owns a 3000, and knows how to use it).

Originally Posted by BEG

I am happy though that it looks like either way Teliax looks good, (knock on wood), and I'm just down to which box.

If you do go Teliax, be sure to turn down their optional number when you sign up. IMHO Teliax incomming numbers are NOT "cost effective". But as an outbound only service, they work well. And with as few minutes as you use, I would just go for their true "Pay as you go" (pay for each minute used) plan, and not have any fixed monthly cost (and only 2 cents/min to call USA numbers).

Oh yeah, if you go with Teliax (which should work either with a PG, or with an SPA3000/3102), look at the instructions for setting your outbound CallerID (and then follow that syntax exactly). Because one nice thing about Teliax, is that you can set up your VoIP line to send out your POTS line's number as it's CallerID (thereby making it look to people you are calling, like you are just calling via your POTS line). Real nice feature, IMHO.

BTW: In answer to your other question, Teliax is "pre-pay" (like a calling card). However, if you prefer to not worry about the pre-pay, they do have an option to automatically put a fixed amount on your CC, everytime your account gets below some balance. For example, you could tell their web portal to add $10 (charged to your CC on file), every time your account balance dips below $10. This option could be handy if you want to "set it and forget about it". Personally I don't use that option, as I only use Teliax as my "backup" (not my primary calling method). But it is an option, if you want things to happen automatically (without you having to pay attention to your current balance).