[ThePhantom]

Am I crazy or has the BV page been updated to include a shyster-sized * next to each rate plan, referring you to the Terms and Conditions...

I don't recall ever seeing the asterisk before.

[PhoneBoy]

Nope, that's new, but not surprising given the threads here as of late.

[AlexanderBell]

Terms of Service and Conditions of Use are very different as well ... including binding arbitration. Won't help them with the current wave of lawsuits assuming they're already filed.

[mberlant]

The Terms and Conditions are dated April 12, 2005, so they have not changed in the wake of this latest flurry of events.

[datarax]

Am I crazy or has the BV page been updated to include a shyster-sized * next to each rate plan, referring you to the Terms and Conditions...

I don't recall ever seeing the asterisk before.

What about putting an shyser size asterik on the billion minutes ad?

[bbbeavis]

The BV TOS contains terms in favor of BV that I feel are excessively onerous; in particular, the right of BV to determine, in their sole discretion. whether you're using their residential service for business purposes. If your usage pattern meets their criteria (which, to my knowledge, is unpublished for consumer review) they can retroactively charge you under the terms of the business plan and, also retroactively, penalize you $100 per day for the alleged transgression (easily paid through your credit card which they have, according to the TOS, the right to promptly charge). I actually read the TOS early on in my testing and felt very uncomfortable with these particualr terms, especially after BV's financial issues that resulted in outages just a few months back. I switched over to another provider on the outside chance they would abuse these rights once I deployed in my home full time. Other posts on this board indicate that they are heavily abusing these rights and I would recommend avoiding this company until they provide more reasonable terms.

[Q]

Originally Posted by bbbeavis

The BV TOS contains terms in favor of BV that I feel are excessively onerous; in particular, the right of BV to determine, in their sole discretion. whether you're using their residential service for business purposes. ... I actually read the TOS early on in my testing and felt very uncomfortable with these particualr terms, especially after BV's financial issues that resulted in outages just a few months back. I switched over to another provider on the outside chance they would abuse these rights once I deployed in my home full time.

bbbeavis,

Yes, as an intelligent consumer you did your homework. Knowing that ignorance is not a defensible position you subscribed with a company that offered terms you could accept.

You stated that you disagreed with BV retaining sole discretion to bump customers to higher cost plans. As some others have mentioned before, BV are not alone in this practice. Your story made me think about this, and sent me on a short search for a provider who offers an unlimited service that is really unlimited. Here is a short sampling of other providers' Terms and Conditions.

Originally Posted by Vonage

2.2 Residential Use of Service and Device. If you subscribe to Vonage's residential services, the Service and the Device are provided to you solely for residential use. You shall not resell or transfer the Service or the Device to another party without our prior written consent. You are prohibited from using the Service or the Device for auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, telemarketing (including, without limitation, charitable or political solicitation or polling), fax or voicemail broadcasting or fax or voicemail blasting. We reserve the right to immediately terminate or modify your Service if we determine, in our sole and absolute discretion, that your use of the Service or the Device is, or at any time was, inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns. In addition, you will be required to pay our higher rates for commercial service for all periods in which your use of the Service or the Device was inconsistent with normal residential use.

No punitive charges, but you will be backbilled.

Originally Posted by AT&T CallVantage

c. Prohibited Uses of Service
You are expressly prohibited from reselling or transferring the Service or AT&T Equipment to any other person for any purpose, without express written permission from AT&T in advance. In addition, you are expressly prohibited from using the Service for auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, telemarketing, fax broadcasting or fax blasting, or for uses that result in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns. In addition, connection of your Service to a device which converts use of the Service to an outbound trunkline by more than one individual is prohibited. If AT&T determines, in its sole discretion, that you are reselling or transferring the Service or that your Service is being used for any of the aforementioned activities, AT&T reserves the right, without advance notice, to immediately terminate or modify the Service, or to change your calling plan to a different offer on a prospective basis, and in addition, to assess additional charges for each month in which excessive usage occurred. If you subscribe to a calling plan which included unlimited calling of any type, unless otherwise specified by your specific plan in marketing materials associated therewith, any usage in excess of 5,000 aggregate minutes per month (or 7,500 minutes for the 2-Line Plan, and certain AT&T teleworker plans offered to end users in conjunction with a corporate service), taking into account all types of calling in your plan which are provided on an unlimited basis, shall be presumed to be not consistent with these restrictions and shall be subject to the conditions above. AT&T also reserves the right to impose usage caps on second lines offered as part of a Service offer.

At least their fine print defines the word 'unlimited'.

Originally Posted by Packet8

11. INTERNATIONAL USE. Unlimited PSTN Plans are only for the personal use of individuals whose primary residence and place of operation of the Service is the United States or Canada . Any use found to be inconsistent with this location restriction will result in the plan being automatically changed to the International User plan or termination of the Service at the sole discretion of 8x8. 8x8 reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Services of any End User using Unlimited PSTN Plans if 8x8 determines, in its sole discretion, that End User is using the Unlimited PSTN Plans outside of the United States or Canada. If the Service is used outside of the United States or Canada at any point as determined solely by 8x8, then 8x8 reserves the right at its sole discretion to immediately move the End User's account and any other accounts of that same End User to the International user plan retroactive to the point that the first unit was used outside the United States or Canada.

These folks can change the plan for all accounts you hold, not just the one that violated the agreement.

Originally Posted by SunRocket

Residential Use. The Service is intended for residential use. You are expressly prohibited from using the Service for autodialing, telemarketing (including without limitation charitable or political solicitation or polling), continuous or extensive call forwarding, fax broadcast, fax blasting or any other activity that results in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns. If SunRocket determines, in its sole discretion, that you are reselling the Service, allowing persons residing outside of your household to regularly use the Service, or that your Service is being used for any of the aforementioned activities, SunRocket reserves the right to immediately terminate without notice or modify the Service and to assess additional charges for each month in which excessive usage occurred.

They will change your plan and backbill you.

Originally Posted by Qwest

(h) Compliance. The Service cannot be used for any unlawful, abusive, or fraudulent purpose, including without limitation, using the Service in a way that: (i) interferes with Qwest's ability to provide service to Qwest customers, (ii) avoids your obligation to pay for communication services, (iii) constitutes a criminal offense, (iv) gives rise to a civil liability, or (v) otherwise violates any laws. Without limiting the foregoing, you may only use the Service and the Approved Equipment for personal, residential, and home office use and may not use the Service or the Approved Equipment for any commercial or governmental activities, profit-making or non-profit, (except home office use) including but not limited to business, sales, telemarketing (including without limitation charitable or political solicitation or polling), auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, fax broadcasting or fax blasting, or for uses that result in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns. Usage in excess of 5,000 minutes per month is considered excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns. If Qwest determines, in its sole discretion, that your Service is being used for any of the aforementioned activities, including without limitation usage in excess of 5,000 minutes per month, Qwest reserves the right to immediately terminate your Service without advance notice or modify the Service and assess additional charges for each month in which excessive usage occurred.

They will change your plan and backbill you.

Originally Posted by CloseCall America

10. UNLIMITED MINUTE USAGE PLANS; CHANGES TO THE AGREEMENT, SERVICES OR PLAN. CloseCall America, Inc. reserves the right to review usage of unlimited minute usage plans to ensure that there is no end-user abuse of such plans. End-user agrees to use unlimited minute plans for normal voice calls and will not employ methods or devices to take advantage of unlimited plans by using service excessively or for means not intended by CloseCall America, Inc.. CloseCall America, Inc. may terminate service immediately if, in its sole discretion, end-user is abusively using the unlimited minute plan. CloseCall America, Inc. reserves the right to make changes to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, the Services and/or the Plan ("Change of Service"). In the event of a Change of Service, CloseCall America, Inc. will post to the website currently located at http://www.closecall..com/voip/terms.html. Notice will be considered received by End Users and such changes will become binding to End Users, on the date the changes are posted to the website ("Change Date"), and no additional notice will be required. CloseCall America, Inc. will post all changes thirty (30) days in advance of the effective date of change. If End User does not send CloseCall America, Inc. notification of their desire to terminate this agreement or uses the Service after the Change Date, End User is deemed to have accepted and consented to the change of terms and conditions of the Service. If End User does not consent to the change of service and terminates this agreement, End User will be responsible for any sums due hereunder in addition to any applicable Disconnection Fee. End User may request a Plan change at anytime, subject to any applicable change of service fee and additional terms and conditions. In no case will an activation fee be credited after thirty (30) days from the initial purchase of the Services for a Plan change or cancellation. For a Plan change to a plan that requires a purchase of the Equipment, an equipment charge will apply. CloseCall America, Inc. may decrease prices for the Services or Plans without providing any prior notice to End User.

These folks don't even have to email you when they change your plan.

Originally Posted by PrimusTel Canada

2.c. The Services (including rate plans) and any equipment are provided to You as a residential user, for Your conventional personal, residential, non-business and non-professional use only and may not be used in any other way or for any other purpose. You agree that Your use of the Services for commercial or any other non-residential purposes will obligate You to pay higher rates for those types of use. Primus reserves the right to immediately suspend, terminate or modify the Service if Primus determines in its sole discretion, that Your service is being misused, including, without limitation, use for non-residential or commercial purposes and usage exceeding conventional residential use.

Here's a Canadian provider with similar terms.

Originally Posted by Lingo

D. Residential Use of Service and Device
If you have subscribed to Primus's residential services, the Service and Device are provided to you as a residential user, for your personal, residential, non-business and non-professional use. This means that you are not using them for any commercial or governmental activities, profit-making or non-profit, including but not limited to home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, tele-marketing, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, fax broadcast, fax blasting or any other activity that would be inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns. This also means that you are not to resell or transfer the Service or the Device to any other person for any purpose, or make any charge for the use of the Service, without express written permission from Primus in advance. You agree that your use of the Service and/or Device, or the use of the Service and/or Device provided to you by any other person for any commercial or governmental purpose will obligate you to pay Primus's higher rates for commercial service on account of all periods, including past periods, in which you use, or used, the Service for commercial or governmental purposes. Primus reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Service, if Primus determines, in its sole discretion, that Customer's Service is being used for non-residential or commercial use.

Originally Posted by babyTEL

5.3- Residential Packages: For users who have subscribed to babyTEL's Residential Package which include either unlimited local usage or unlimited long distance usage, the Service and Device are provided to you, as a residential user, for your personal, residential, non-business and non-professional use. As such you cannot use the Service or the Device for any other purpose, including without limitation, for any commercial or governmental activities, profit-making or non-profit, home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, telemarketing, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, fax broadcast, voice blasting, prolonged calls or any other activity that would be inconsistent with normal babyTEL residential usage patterns. You agree that your use of the Service and/or Device, or the use of the Service and/or Device provided to you by any other person for any commercial or governmental purpose will obligate you to pay babyTEL's higher rates for commercial service on account of all periods, including past periods, in which you use, or used, the Service for commercial or governmental purposes

Another Canadian provider with similar terms.

Originally Posted by eGlobalPhone

Residential Plans
If you are an eGlobalphone unlimited Residential Plan Customer, services are provided for normal personal use and may not be used for any business related purpose. This includes home office, network marketing, telephone sales, telemarketing, automatic dialing or any other use deemed by eGlobalphone to be non residential. The service may not be used by others for payment or by any other person for commercial use. If usage patterns are outside or in excess of what Provider deems to be normal residential use, Provider reserves the right to immediately terminate service, upgrade the service to a Business plan or revert Service to a plan based on usage charging.

It is incumbent upon those who seek redress from BV to show that BV's Terms and Conditions depart considerably from the Terms and Conditions of other companies offering similar services and that they were not given sufficient opportunity to read and understand the agreement before consenting to the terms.

This simple exercise has failed to turn up a single 'unlimited' service provider offering a plan that is truly unlimited, nor one who does not retain the sole right to change a residential customer's service plan or to backbill that customer for perceived abuses of a residential unlimited service plan.

[mberlant]

That's a lot of research. I have also looked around from time to time and haven't been able to find a provider whose unlimited plans are really unlimited, nor any who don't reserve the right to change a residential plan to business without disclosing the rules.

Does anybody know of a provider who does not reserve this right or who discloses clearly the manner in which they determine "residential calling pattern"?

I'm not trying to say that this secrecy is right or wrong, only that it is common industry practice.

[datarax]

It is incumbent upon those who seek redress from BV to show that BV's Terms and Conditions depart considerably from the Terms and Conditions of other companies offering similar services and that they were not given sufficient opportunity to read and understand the agreement before consenting to the terms.

This simple exercise has failed to turn up a single 'unlimited' service provider offering a plan that is truly unlimited, nor one who does not retain the sole right to change a residential customer's service plan or to backbill that customer for perceived abuses of a residential unlimited service plan.

Q,

1) No other provider other than fraudvoice is running a deceptive ad to lead people to believe that there are a billion minutes included like the one running on voxilla.

2) How can you possibly compare the various provider's TOS agreements and deem them comparable when "normal residential usage" is not disclosed. Don't you think fraudvoice should disclose the basis they are using for "normal residential usage" ? One provider may see 5000 minutes as non-residential and another 2000 minutes.

3)Yes, all the providers are lying about unlimited plans. None of them are truly unlimited but at least AT&T and Qwest define the term unlimited with a finite number of minutes. So they lie and then in small TOS print that very few people read thru tell the truth.

Is it ok to lie just because everyone else is? Is that what advertisements do when they write ads? Does a lie become the truth when enough people lie? Are there no absolutes anymore? Do we judge lying on a bell curve now? GAK!

[datarax]

I'm not trying to say that this secrecy is right or wrong, only that it is common industry practice.

Why not just say this secrecy is wrong? How can you not have an opinion about this? Withholding information that a consumer needs to make an informed decision is wrong and deceptive no matter how many people do it. Locked devices are a common industry practice. Should people that buy ata's from voxilla start carefully reading your terms of sale very closely?

Does anybody know of a provider who does not reserve this right or who discloses clearly the manner in which they determine "residential calling pattern"?

Yes, AT&T and Qwest as illustrated from q's post.